From: paranoidandroid	Date: March 22nd, 2006 06:10 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I'm not entirely sure how I'd feel if I was that 14 year old because I have not been there.

I know when I was 14 that I had a crush on a couple of my teachers. I know that at the time I would have thought it was a fantastic idea.

This makes it difficult for me to think of him as a victim.

I do believe that there was a crime - make no mistake... but it's a victimless crime.

I know I would think differently if the teacher was a man. I know that is a double standard... and I still can't think of the kid as a victim.

Totally messed up isn't it?

	From: sassylidge	Date: March 22nd, 2006 07:01 pm (UTC)		(Link)

do you know any 13 or 14yo boys currently? I suggest hanging out with one for a while before deciding if he wouldn't be a victim. Basically, this isn't about sex. It's about power, as all sexual abuse is. A 14yo boy isn't capable of making a decision about sex - understanding what it really is and what the ramifications are. Let alone the ramifications of being with someone much older. Someone older -does- understand about these things and what can happen and how this might negatively affect the boy's life. It's a one sided situation where the woman uses the boy's hormones and inexperience against him to manipulate him into doing something he just isn't ready for.

If the boy was 16, I would hesititate to say that there was emotional damage done, but from the 14yo boys I know in my life, I know that something like this would really fuck you up mentally. Even the men I've talked to about their too young experiences with peers talked about how they shied away from sex for at least a few years afterwards because they found it humiliating.

I think this whole attitude by older men to laugh and say "atta boy" about the victims just adds to the victim's emotional damage. They are confused enough and added to that, all the men they see around them act as if they should be grateful, even if it is something that scares them and makes them feel violated. I bet a lot of boys don't talk about things like this because they are afraid to be seen as less of a man.

	From: paranoidandroid	Date: March 22nd, 2006 08:43 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I can't say I know any children of that age. I have an aversion to children - something I blame on being a child still myself.

I can't think of a reason for her to want to have sex with a 14 year old other than power... so I have to agree with you on that count. I don't think she can be in a proper state of mind.

As a 14 year old is he able to give consent? Legally he isn't, but let's ignore that for a second - I do not deny that legally she did wrong.

I think you can't be sure one way or the other whether he was ready for this or if he was capable mentally for consenting. Boys generally don't equate sex with any emotional attachment, some men don't either! We will probably never find out what kind of boy he was because he is (and shoud be) protected from all this media feeding frenzy by the law.

Of course - this doesn't stop me playing devil's advocate!

	From: sassylidge	Date: March 22nd, 2006 09:00 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I like to "collect" virginity stories from people. In all the people I've talked to, everyone (whether male or female) who had sex before they were 15, look back at the situation with kind of a creeping sick feeling and wish it hadn't have happened - and they all had it forced upon them. Now, taking that knowledge combined with being close friends with a 13yo boy right now (he's my best friends' kid), I know it's got to be a bad situation for the boy - and one I'm sure he didn't ask for.

Sure there are exceptions to the rules, but there are rules, as well.

	From: paranoidandroid	Date: March 22nd, 2006 09:42 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I'm not sure any virginity story is free from horror in one form or another... I know for sure mine wasn't (and I waited a bloody long time!)

I've also had a share of "omg - why did I do that" - I'm not sure it's any better when you are 14 or 34! I also regret missing some opertunities because I was a idealist (or damn fussy) when I was younger. Not 14 younger - but during the time most of my friends were working out the "rules" to the various dating games.

From: (Anonymous)	Date: March 22nd, 2006 10:41 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Of course there are plenty of virginity horror stories, but it isn't so much a "omg! it was so awkward" as much as this feeling of ickiness that the people express. It's just an observation I've made in the data I collected.

I've also found that most women over 15 lose their virginity because they just want to get it over with and most men because some nice woman decided to have sex with them and they were very happy about it - even if there were some funny and awkard occurances during the losing of the virginity. Once people are over 15 it seems that they feel it was there choice rather than that it was taken from them and the didn't have control over it.

	From: sassylidge	Date: March 22nd, 2006 10:42 pm (UTC)		(Link)

oops! that was me, of course!

btw, I hope you don't think I'm mad or anything. I like this kind of debate!

	From: paranoidandroid	Date: March 23rd, 2006 10:33 am (UTC)		(Link)

I'm glad you are not mad! :)

I enjoy a good lively debate and will take a contrary view just to prolong the debate on many occasions - just ask my missus (it drives her to distraction at times!) :)

	From: yalith	Date: March 22nd, 2006 11:31 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I wonder if perhaps it's just the company you keep (and, since it's difficult to express tone in correspondance, I do not mean that patronizingly. I, and most of the company I keep, have had a completely different range of experiences, and I like to collect virginity stories myself. I had the opportunity to lose my virginity at 13 to a 12 year old. We'd been hot-and-heavy for a time, and we almost did, but we both decided that if something were to happen, we couldn't handle the repercussions. We were very aware of pregnancy and STDs and social stigma. Maybe we were just lucky that way.

When I lost my virginity at (barely) 15, it was because I wanted to get fucked. I don't think I personally know a single woman that lost her virginity at such a young age that did it merely to get it over with. Then, there are one or two that I haven't asked...

	From: paranoidandroid	Date: March 23rd, 2006 10:31 am (UTC)		(Link)

There is a stigma attached to being a virgin when you are young. I'm sure this has prompted kids (girls mainly, perhaps boys as well?) to go further than they wanted to and regret it later.

Can societies many taboos around sex be partly to blame for people feeling ickiness about their early experiences?

We are bombarded by our peers, the media, the church that sex before a certain age (or before marriage, or at all) is perverse. I'm not one to be swayed by peer pressure so while I can see the need for laws to protect those that might not be able to protect themselves - I don't believe it's necessarily perverse for kids to be experimenting sexually once they get to their middle teens. Perhaps people more likely to take notice of these peer pressures will start to feel icky becuase they are told that teen sex *is* icky?

	From: paranoidandroid	Date: March 22nd, 2006 08:31 pm (UTC)		(Link)

The front page of his site is a little on the scary side... he obviously things his opinion should be of some value!

	From: paranoidandroid	Date: March 22nd, 2006 08:17 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Interesting question! The poll is about the boy...
I would never consider the teacher as a victim, but I would consider damn lucky to have gotten away with no jail time!

I have mentioned in other posts that I wonder about her motives and mental health. What can she see in a boy so young?

I see no question about this being a crime, just is there a victim?

	From: brightspot	Date: March 22nd, 2006 08:50 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Believe it or not, I have heard some people infer that she was a victim of the child's charm, or a victim of child abuse herself as a child, and that's why she did this...they say she should be in therapy, not in jail.

I say to hell with that. She had sex with a child. A child that *could* have been taught a valuable lesson in what it and is not appropriate, if indeed he was hitting on her, and could have been taught that life in society is all about boundaries...but now is being made a hero by some and, I think by anyone's measure, has received some amount of pleasure for doing something he shouldn't have. That can't possibly have a good effect on the rest of his life.

I see him as a victim, certainly - maybe not the same way I'd see a girl who'd had sex with her teacher. I don't think boys emote and think the same way as girls. But has he learned a lesson that has every potential to make his life miserable later? You betcha. That lack of respect or fear or an understand of the distance between people in a position of authority over him could have some seriously bad ramifications later in his life.

	From: paranoidandroid	Date: March 22nd, 2006 09:12 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Nope - doesn't matter which way it's painted - I can't see her as the victim... not unless he raped her.

Interesting point about boundaries and a lack of understanding in later life could cause problems. I can't think of a good counter arguement for that!

	From: paranoidandroid	Date: March 23rd, 2006 10:40 am (UTC)		(Link)

You summed up the entire story in a single sentence, you had the contraversy, and a unique angle.

It's not the sort of headline that you'd see in the Times... but it beats the hell out of some in those "papers" like the Sun, Mirror and Star!

Have you considered a career in creative writing? (In all seriousness!)

	From: seattleforge	Date: March 24th, 2006 03:38 am (UTC)		(Link)

Thank you very much, but.. I find writing for a living to be a complete drudgery. I'll keep it in the hobby column. I've done writing for a living and I thought I would kill myself. Oi.